James Lawley and Penny Tompkins command a huge amount of respect in the NLP community. Whilst much of their practice is in communicating and developing Clean Language and Symbolic Modelling, their background and heritage is in NLP which underpins all they do. They talked to Andy Coote about modelling the originator of Clean Language, David Grove, using NLP, in the process developing their own modelling process, developing Symbolic Modelling – centred on Clean Language – and continuing to work with leading NLP trainers and the community.